In a new leaked one- and half-hour audio recording, Police chief Kale Kayihura had a revealing conversation with Sebina Sekitoleko, his aide, and Alex Kasirivu, an NRM youth mobiliser, who painted an intriguing picture of how the under-fire Prime Minister Amama Mbabazi with the help of his wife Jacqueline cobbled together a g network of allies to support his future political ambitions.
Speaking in a weekend interview in response to The Observer story Amama, Kayihura spy tapes exposed, Sebina Sekitoleko, who was part of the conversation, said the audio recording clearly captures the spirit and content of the entire conversation between the three as it happened.
He said he was happy that the published articles and final transcript clearly showed that Kayihura did not coach any youth to implicate Mbabazi in any political scheme against President Museveni as Jacqueline, the wife, had alleged earlier.
“When you listen to the recording, it is the boy telling us all that they [Mbabazis] have been doing. Not us coaching him. Her mission has backfired,” Sebina said.
Sebina said Jacqueline should now apologise or face the party’s disciplinary committee for misleading the public.
“She is very undisciplined and must be put to task to explain whether her motive is to build NRM or kill it,” he said.
He urged the media to verify statements made by some leaders before they are published. The Observer understands that this is the recording Jacqueline Mbabazi alluded to in an interview with The Sunday Monitor of March 30. She said the recording would provide proof that Gen Kayihura was coaching some youths to accuse her family of mobilising politically against Museveni.
“I have recorded him. In this recording which I am going to make publicly available, the IGP and one Sebina were coaching a youth called Kasirivu from Kayunga,” Jacqueline told Sunday Monitor.
The Observer was unable to reach Mrs Mbabazi for a comment at the weekend. But her sister, the former minister Hope Mwesigye, dismissed Sebina’s demands for an apology. Ms Mwesigye said it was clear from the tape that Kayihura was “leading” his informant on for instance, promising to set up appointments with Museveni.
This, she said, showed a police chief keen to pin the prime minister over a matter internal to the ruling party.
The recording which runs for one hour and 29 minutes captured three voices of Kale Kayihura (KK), Sebina Sekitoleko (SS) and Kasirivu Alex (KA).
Below is an edited version of the transcript. However, some names with minimal significance to the narrative have been withheld.
KA: Yes sir. How are you sir?
KK: I am fine. How are you? Let’s go through this quickly.
KK: Yes sir.
KA: Maybe you didn’t get my name very well, Kasirivu Alex. I am the current NRM chairman in Kayunga.
KK: Ok. Chairman?
KK: Chairperson NRM?
KA: Yes sir, NRM
KA: I thank you for the time you accorded us when we first came to meet you even when you are very busy…
KA: These things I have been doing [mobilising for Mbabazi] I would say I have been doing them for my well-being. I have a family, and as you know we are going through hard times, we have problems. We have been going through this but I am sure I have been working together with them because of financial problems we all go through.
I thank you for not showing suspicion about me the first time I came to meet you. I have been working for NRM for long, for its good. This is the fourth time we are meeting. Once we met in Kayunga over land matters.
KA: I have been doing a lot of work the truth is I am very rare.
KA: I have come before you to show that I am willing to work with the government. I am now serving the third term in this youth post. I am one of those who founded the Movement Brothers Forum and others… Madam Jacqueline Mbabazi drove to my home. She came with her daughter Nina Mbabazi.
KK: Uuuh. When?
KA: It was last year 2013, and they had come to apologise to me because I was one of those who solicited for signatures to bring Hon Mbabazi for his other term as Secretary General in 2005. They told me they were sorry [for abandoning me] — that I may be annoyed with them. They said they are sorry for what happened. They said they have a new mission we would like to commence.
KA: I told them it is ok. I don’t have any problem. You see, this is the situation we all live in. What I will say to you is that I didn’t study a lot but I went to school. I look after my family and I am a guardian to many…
KA: We did not interact a lot but—but she [Jacqueline] told me that there is a man who was working for her but he [switched sides].
KA: That man is called Sebina Sekitoleko
KA: They told me they are not getting what they really worked for in Buganda [and] they wanted me to mobilise for them in Buganda… I told them I would think about it. As I was still thinking about it, she sent Adam Luzindana my neighbour in Kayunga. We are just separated by fences.
KK: Hold on, repeat that. What did they tell you to do?
KA: To help canvass support for Hon Amama Mbabazi in NRM and among the local people.
KK: Support for what?
KA: So that he becomes NRM chairman and the president of Uganda come 2016.
KK: They told you that?
KA: That is the truth. I am not a liar.
KK: Who told you that?
KK: Which Madam?
KA: Jacqueline Mbabazi.
KK: Did she come with someone else?
KA: She was with her daughter.
KK: And were you alone?
KA: On meeting me at home, the first time, she was [with] Adam Luzindana.
KK: Who was with Madam?
KA: Madam came with her tall driver in a black Land Cruiser. It was a UAN I did not get the other numbers.
KK: Hold on. What was the tall driver putting on?
KA: He was putting on black clothes. He had an army officer and they were also two. Adam came in a Benz.
KK: Who else did Madam come with?
KA: When she reached my home, she was all alone.
KA: I wasn’t well financially. So she got me some money.
KK: How much?
KA: 10 million
KK: 10 million?
KA: Yes, she told me that I should first look for all Buganda contacts.
KK: Didn’t you ask her why?
KA: I am coming to that.
KA: But I told her, we need to handle this matter slowly. I did it in fear. I used to think Hon. Mbabazi and President Museveni are one.
KK: Are one?
KA: Yes, she told me “My son, we shall handle these things”… she said he [Museveni] is serving the second term [since we embraced multi-party politics] but for us, “we have worked with this man ever since we started in Fronasa but he is not good. He is not trustworthy. He is not dependable.”
KA: I told them you never know one day I will be able to find a loophole but I knew I would not do it [mobilise for Mbabazi] without government’s knowledge.
KA: I can’t do that because intelligence will discover me.
KA: And it will kill me if they ask me why I knew [about Mbabazi’s activities] but never spoke.
KA: … if I just secede from the others, the others who have deployed me will also be observing me. I have deployed many youths and you have been working with some of them like [Name withheld].
KA: But the problem is that some of them have been two-timing. They come that side for information but take it the other side like [Name withheld].
KK: In what way?
KA: Because the last time I worked with him [Name withheld], I actually found he had just dropped by Madam’s [Jacqueline] place. I asked him “when I have not deployed you, you mean you have also been coming to Madam?” He said no. Then Madam told me not to worry because he was a front and that he is a friend to Gen Kale Kayihura.
KA: She [Jacqueline] told us: “Sometimes, we deploy in his [Kayihura’s] boardroom. So before I proceed, I would like you to check especially in your boardroom for people who just come in to spy on you.
KK: Oh yes.
KA: I have wanted to give you information that some people you work with are already working the other side. I have been doing my job well and Madam won’t hesitate to call me to update me on anything. She [Jacqueline] told me she has helped me a lot and that she will replace Sebina with me because I am swift and trustworthy. I told her I am grateful but I have been discontent ever since my home was torched.
KA: During the Buganda riots.
KA: Ever since I started to work with her, I told her you can’t work without the other people’s contacts. The NRM secretariat does not have contacts. The NRM Communication Bureau only had a few phone numbers of mobilisers and chairmen.
KA: I told her in Buganda, we have around 2,000-plus delegates give me a chance to first traverse and get these contacts so that in our discussion, we may get to know their opinions.
KA: Now what is the way forward, because I have the database and I can reach everyone I even have the samples.
SS: Afande, you know who is working? It was [Names withheld] our former Woman MP and General [Names withheld] —
SS: It was [Names withheld] and General [Names withheld] —
KA: You have seen [her] signature… and I have been in several meetings with them and General [Names withheld] and former CMI boss.
KK: You mean [Names withheld]?
KA: This thing you are in Afande doesn’t stop here.
KK: What you mean is that Gen [Names withheld] and [former CMI boss] are part of this?
KA: They are within. Very many of them. Even within ISO. I want a straightforward strategy where I can work for you and produce clean results based on truth.
KK: Would you do it as NRM mobilisation?
KK: When were they given to you?
KA: I have been working on deployments.
KK: Would you do it as NRM mobilisation?
KA: Yes, as NRM mobilisation.
KA: They were focusing on the fact that if the NRM delegates’ conference sits and all the people are contented, even if Mzee [Museveni] does whatever it takes, he can never win their hearts.
KK: Is that the strategy you have been employing?
KA: Yes. Those cards they [Mbabazis] printed during Christmas and you think they are from Nkrumah it is not true… if you doubt me, I will bring you the cards I didn’t distribute, in good faith cards which are not less than 100…
KK: We heard that there was a package as well?
KA: Some got money.
KA: Even in security, they [moles] are there. Some people you work with them in police. Madam [Jacqueline] calls them and tells them to send cars for fuelling.
KK: Now do you have their names?
KA: I will bring you all the names of all those you work with in police.
KK: Thank you very much.
KA: And as I move, I will do you a very good job and I will be able to tell you who to remove or add because I have all the records. I will tell you who to pick out or add.
KK: It’s ok, It’s ok.
KA: Because when we started this thing, do not think this is for the delegates’ conference. Each district has a target. The targeted people are district councillors, district NRM executives, LC3 NRM chairpersons.
He is leaning on parliament, councilors, local council 3s, and then influential political figures in each district, we have been moving with. I will produce to you the entire records like we have been travelling. Then we will also look for opinion leaders who are targeted and some of them are religious heads.
We have been meeting some of them and they have counselled us. Some of them have been aising us for instance the [archbishop]. That I won’t lie to you.
KK: The one who resigned?
KA: … I repeat this they had tea at Amama Mbabazi’s home last Saturday and the [religious leader] was there. He came and by the time we reached his home, they were there. He even asked him to pray for his boys so that they can do their work very well.
KK: Who and who?
KA: That bishop and the Rt Hon Amama Mbabazi.
KA: What I am trying to say is that religious leaders especially Catholics are supportive.
KK: On whose side?
KA: Plus the MPs, the government must be careful. They are always in meetings.
KA: She [Jacqueline] once told me that when she was grilled [by Museveni], she also grilled him [Museveni]. That when he tried to shout at him, she also shouted at him.
KK: What? Repeat for me.
KA: That the president summoned her…
KK: In the absence of Hon Mbabazi?
KA: Yes, and asked her why she is involved in all these mischievous things and she responded that I do that because you undermine my husband. She told me that she was very contented for having said her mind on Kayihura. That the president told her that Kayihura is a full general but she said I don’t care.
KK: She told Mzee?
KA: Yes. Then she [Jacqueline] told me, “My son, be g. He [Museveni] thought he would shake me but he found me very g so be g too.”
KA: She told me: “We have spies on the other side, and this side. Just be g and do the work.” But honestly, some of us are there but not comfortable because we know very well the state machinery and state power.
KA: There are people in every district [mobilising for Mbabazi], the same at the sub-county and in each parish and village as we talk now. When the Kyankwanzi [resolution] came in, the message became ger and the people were informed that when they go to Namboole, they should resist the Kyankwanzi decision. Just stay put.
KA: The people will say a lot because people now have a lot of expectations that if Mbabazi keeps in the race to contest with Museveni, both will use a lot of money. The president will bring in money and Mbabazi will bring in money. When Madam meets her people, she assures them that it will be possible [to win] because they have support from some western countries and some organisations.
KK: In which countries?
KA: UK and China.
KK: Support from the leaders or just the people?
KA: The countries where they expect to get funding from. As of now, she is out.
KA: Madam. I don’t know whether you are aware.
KK: I heard of it.
KA: She said that next week, you will look for people but their phones will always be busy.
KK: The issue of which phones?
KA: Every district will have its own phones which you won’t be able to monitor.
KK: Which we can’t monitor, really?
KA: I am telling you the truth. When they are here, I will inform you they are here now.
KK: Are they from China?
KA: Yes. She told me she will reach by Friday and that on Saturday, I should mobilise all the people and we start on plan B.
KA: That means by Saturday, those phones will have arrived.
KK: But how are they arriving?
KA: They must be coming on the plane though I do not know exactly how they will arrive. But you will get to know who she travelled with and how many people.
KK: Now, who made the other draft of the petition [challenging the Kyankwanzi resolution]?
KA: The lawyers.
KA: They made it.
KK: Under whose instructions?
KA: From home.
SS: Whose home?
KA: Madam and Afande?
KK: Which Afande?
KA: Amama Mbabazi.
KK: You heard him give instructions?
KA: Afande, I cannot give you false information because I am here… I know I can gain from this and save my life and if I lie to the state, that is another crime.
KK: Thank you very much.
Sebina Sekitoleko: Were you there when he [Mbabazi] was issuing instructions?
KA: Mr Sebina, you know me and I am not that person who has a loose tongue and it is really hard for someone to extract a word from me. Actually most people do not know who Kasirivu is, yet I have done and accomplished very many things.
So now these lawyers will file their case basing on this petition.
KA: The members of the delegates’ conference have petitioned saying that what has been decided by the NRM parliamentary caucus is wrong.
KA: They are waiting for the delegates’ conference and I can assure you it will be chaos. I can tell you this, Afande, without hiding anything.
KA: People believe and are waiting for Namboole.
KK: But now, how would you aise Mzee [Museveni] if I arrange and you meet him? How would you aise him?
KA: What I can say is that they really have the money and that is why some people had started to be intrigued. They have the money.
KK: Do they give money at the grassroots?
KA: They give money at the grassroots, Afande.
KK: Ok. What do they tell them?
KA: To continue mobilising.
KA: It is easy to identify the chairmen and I can give you an example from my area and his Hajji, our chairman is good but he doesn’t travel. He takes the message from State House but does not convey it.
KK: Now, I am going to see whether it will be possible that you meet Mzee, but do you have time?
KA: I don’t have any problem… Afande, I am doing these things for the good of all of us, but I have a family.
KA: I can be a rebel but I ask for protection for my family
KK: Now let us do like this if you want it [protection], I will give it to you.
KA: Because these people we work with are not good people.
KA: In case they get to learn of any leakage, you see even as we walk, they are monitoring us. KK: So we give you a hat.
KA: Afande, I will stay in my demeanor but—
KK: So we should be rebels—Uuuuh
KA: Don’t think these people are simple.
KK: Let us meet on Sunday, you bring me all [the documents] you have. We photocopy them.
KA: I will prepare you a good report different from what you see.
KK: Thank you very much.
KA: Afande, these people do not tell you. [Idah] Nantaba is my sister. We are from the same clan, our fathers are brothers. I am the one who picked her from Namaganda Plaza to oust Naiga Sekabira [former MP].
KK: Uuuh… don’t you remember how we fought for her to become minister?
KA: Such a situation is not good. The MPs are there and even ministers.
KK: Time is up. Go and rest. This one here will see you.
KA: But things are not good on the ground Afande but I will do for you a very good job. KK: Thank you very much… Nani, give him Shs 1m, he will sign.
KA: Thank you Afande. We shall be working together.
KK: Thank you. We will give you facilitation and you work.
KA: What we shall first tackle is, even before you dispatch the MPs for mobilisation, we should first withdraw all those that he [Mbabazi] had deployed. After frustrating that, the rest we shall achieve.
KK: Thank you very much… ensure this gentleman’s security.He should not be exposed.
KA: Because my DPC is not easy
KK: Do you want me to inform him?
KA: At least he deploys one or two policemen for me.
KK: Though not at this time
Sebina: Whenever you need it.
KA: Yes. He should know just in case because I have been in the news.
KK: Ok. Go and sleep.
KA: Ok Afande.
KK: Travel in the morning.
KA: I do not want to travel at night
KK: Where do you sleep? I want him to be safe.
KA: Ok. My problem is in Kayunga. That is where my children are.
SS: It is Ok we shall handle.
KK: It is Ok.
SS: In case of a problem, Let us know.
KA: You see I may inform you of the problem when it has already happened.
KK: Let us address that on Sunday
KK: We can’t get you private guards now because —
KA: It is possible
Sebina: I think there is no need. First go to the field.
KA: No I don’t mean at home I do not need them while I walk but when I am from a mission and I return late at home like at 1am. Mr. Sebina, I understand the people I work with.
KA: When they tiptoe, I can also get to my home safe and sound.
KK: You see when we deploy for you the police, Jacqueline will know
KA: She won’t know. Like today she called me and told me they were looking for us and I also told her I am already in hiding. She doesn’t know whether I am here or not, she won’t know.
KK: Thank you very much. Nani, can we raise another three million?
KA: Give him one million for him and three million for another group
I had given him one million at first. That one was for Nani.
KK: First sign before you go. Hold on, first check if it is clear. We don’t want to expose you.
KA: But for now do not allow them in your boardroom because they come and sit and wait for long and wait for the reports to arrive.
KK: True. Now, Besigye is monitoring me, Lukwago is monitoring me, Sejusa is monitoring me, plus my member…
KA: They come and sit in your boardroom…
Sebina: Let’s go. Leave the general.
KK: First clear.
KA: … I wouldn’t’ leave the other side but Afande, the president has promised me a lot. This government has given us peace. I have been chairman in this previous term. I can’t go against him. When things go bizarre tomorrow, will my children survive this?
Source : The Observer